21 ответов в теме

[sidney]

Dorogije druzja

could you recomend me any publications about gnezdovo mogilnik? Inet or book publications. I would like knew more about gnezdovo helm 1. We have /in czech republic/ similar helmets from Stromovka but unfortunately without exact dating and your helm could help us with dating our helms.

thank you  Sidney

her is photo of helm from stormovka[IMG]

[sidney]

And here is sidewiev of this helm

[sidney]

And detail of lower part of helm with traces of mail aventail

[variag_s_pechki_briak]

How you going mate? Nice helmet there! From my limited knowledge i would also say it is a Kirpichnikov's type one, and it would be dated by 9-11 century. Most likely 10th, here is a link to the translation of Kirpichnikov's chapter on helmets may be it will help you out a bit.
http://members.ozema...risa....ets.htm
We had some references to the publications of the actual burial, so i will try to get them as soon as possible. I know that my club mate just got the archeological report on one of the Gnezdovo sights, but we were primarily interested in belts. In any case i will have a look. Good luck, and my lamentations to Czech football team, should have been through to the elimination rounds.

[Fil]

Hi!
So we have a replica of this helmet in our club. Here is   Sergei on the picture.

[sidney]

How you going mate? Nice helmet there! From my limited knowledge i would also say it is a Kirpichnikov's type one, and it would be dated by 9-11 century. Most likely 10th, here is a link to the translation of Kirpichnikov's chapter on helmets may be it will help you out a bit.
http://members.ozema...risa....ets.htm
We had some references to the publications of the actual burial, so i will try to get them as soon as possible. I know that my club mate just got the archeological report on one of the Gnezdovo sights, but we were primarily interested in belts. In any case i will have a look. Good luck, and my lamentations to Czech football team, should have been through to the elimination rounds.

Thank you very much for your attention. Similarity of this helms is so big, that a lot of friends said about one manufactury, about one producer of this helms. / Druzinik from great Moravia fled to Kievien rus. I would like knew any more abiut this helm and related things.

Sergei helm is beutiful, I am thinking about similar replica

[sidney]

How you going mate? Nice helmet there! From my limited knowledge i would also say it is a Kirpichnikov's type one, and it would be dated by 9-11 century. Most likely 10th, here is a link to the translation of Kirpichnikov's chapter on helmets may be it will help you out a bit.
http://members.ozema...risa....ets.htm
We had some references to the publications of the actual burial, so i will try to get them as soon as possible. I know that my club mate just got the archeological report on one of the Gnezdovo sights, but we were primarily interested in belts. In any case i will have a look. Good luck, and my lamentations to Czech football team, should have been through to the elimination rounds.

Thank you very much for your attention. Similarity of this helms is so big, that a lot of friends said about one manufactury, about one producer of this helms. / Druzinik from great Moravia fled to Kievien rus. I would like knew any more abiut this helm and related things.

Sergei helm is beutiful, I am thinking about similar replica

What do you mean about nazal in gnezdovo helm? Helms from Stromovka had narrow nasal. Fragments of one and whole second nasal was found with this helms. Here are pictures of this helms from book about st wenceslav helm from hejdova

[variag_s_pechki_briak]

sidney

As far as i know Gnezdovo 2 is the one with the nasal, or at list remnants of it. The Gnezdovo 1 helm that you enquired about didnt have the nasal.

Thats actually quite strange, because Stromovka piece doesn't look like it ment to have a nasal. If there is one found with it, could it mean it wasn't a nasal or a piece of some other construction?

Gnezdovo 1 isn't that hard to make, just alot of rivets. Sergei's helm looks quite good, i guess you can always copy it

Cheers mate!

[sidney]

sidney

As far as i know Gnezdovo 2 is the one with the nasal, or at list remnants of it. The Gnezdovo 1 helm that you enquired about didnt have the nasal.

Thats actually quite strange, because Stromovka piece doesn't look like it ment to have a nasal. If there is one found with it, could it mean it wasn't a nasal or a piece of some other construction?

Gnezdovo 1 isn't that hard to make, just alot of rivets. Sergei's helm looks quite good, i guess you can always copy it

Cheers mate!

Both Stromovka helms had nasal - helm 2 was found with intact nasal, which is on the picture.  With helm 1 was found "right arm of nasal with rounded end fasten by 2 rivets", size 5,5x2,8cm
My friends assume nasal in  gnezdovo helm 1 also.

And second discuse goes around our forum - cut out in front part of the helm. It is assumed in aou helms and in gnezdovo helm also. What do you mean about that?  

Who made Sergei replica of gnezdovo helm and how much does it cost?  At leats approximately .

[variag_s_pechki_briak]

Interesting, do you have a picture of the second helm from Stromovka? Even more intriguing is the fact that Stromovka is constructed in identical way to Gnezdovo 1 helm, which definatly doesn't have the nasal. I will get the actual report on Gnezdovo burials on Sunday, so i can have a look and tell you what else was in the grave and if there are any minor details of that helm what would be of use.

I actually don't know who made Sergei's helmet, cant even approximate how much would it cost, because i am in a different club. Fil might be able to help you with that.

[variag_s_pechki_briak]

Just as an assumption, could it be a late Roman helmet? 6-8 century? Some of them had a simular construction plus the cheek pieces and a nasal.

[sidney]

Just as an assumption, could it be a late Roman helmet? 6-8 century? Some of them had a simular construction plus the cheek pieces and a nasal.

Yes, it was the first assumption about dating of this helms. Becaus of absence any other objects with helms /this helms was founded  alone by peasant on the field/, it was dating from 5th to 12th century without definitive conclusion. From this reason is the similarity /or identity/ this helms with gnezdovo 1 helm so crucial for dating of our helms.

I wil try to dig up any other photos of this helms, mainly helm number 2. My photos are from private inspection of this helms accomplished by my friends, official photos dont exist. This helms was publicate only in Hejdova, Saint wenceslav helm /pictures above/.

[Olbeorn]

поднимем тему?

из Кирпичникова по гнездовскому первому типу можно выжать следующие

размеры:
высота купола 18 см
диаметр шлема 22 см
ширина венца 4,5 см
окружность шлема 64 см
толщина в хорошо сохранившихся местах 0,3-0,4 мм
кольца бармицы 4-5 мм в диаметре при ширине 1 мм

вооружившись фотографиями шлема, линейкой и потратив 15 секунд на пропорции можно вычислить еще кое-что:
ширина полосы, соединяющей тулью 3.5 см
диаметр шляпок заклепок - 3.75-4 мм

возможности посмотреть шлем поближе в ближайшее время не предвидится, так что если кто-то может меня поправить и дополнить, буду рад.
помимо недостающих для полного моего счастья размеров остаются еще вопросы про:
1. "несколько мелких шариков золота и серебра" - что это все-таки? предполагается что украшения - если так, есть ли попытка реконструировать?
2. интересует также про специфический "вырез" в лицевой части шлема. закрадывается крамольная мысль - возможно это не последствия коррозии, а оригинальная конструкция? аналогичная мысль возникла и у sidney выше.
3. у Кирпичникова крепление бармицы описано как "ряд крупных петель". на фотографиях мне видится загнутый внутрь край венца с пропилами. я прав? именно это описывает А.Н.?
4. толщина шлема мне кажется чересчур маленькой. чем можно объяснить? шлем, как мне кажется, ни разу не парадный. коррозия?

[sidney]

Thank you very much.

I dont know anything about gold and silver from this helm. It is interesting. This information is from Kirpicnikov also?  

Thin walling of this helmet is because of corrosion. I thing.

[Olbeorn]

Under a helmet there were some fine balls from gold and silver (it is probable, the rests of ornaments). - yes, it's from A.N.K.

Thin walling of this helmet is because of corrosion

Probably, but I would like to listen other opinions.

[Sergei]

1.Шарики драг.металлов - это, скорее всего, расплавившиеся изделия, не относящиеся к шлему. При осмотре шлема, никаких свидетельств покрытия железа шлема другими металлами выявлено не было.
2. Как такового лицевого выреза у гнёздовского шлема не было. НО обруч (цельный или составной) для подвеса бармицы проходил по всему нижнему краю венца. В предличной области петли были удалены (или не были пропилены и удалена была часть согнутого обруча).
3. Крепление бармицы. Аналогично креплению шлема у хорошо опубликованного шлема из Копергейта. Нижний край венца с двух сторон (внутренней и внешней) охватывался сложенным пополам "обручем", в котором были сделаны пропилы.
4. Толщина шлема до 1,5 мм. Скорее 1-1,3 мм. НО это нормально. Толщина большинства раннесредневековых шлемов 1-1,5 мм.
Откуда взялась толщина в 0,3-0,4 мм?
5.Размерные характеристики немного отличаются.

[Olbeorn]

Спасибо за ответы про лицевой вырез и украшения.

Крепление бермицы аналогично, но есть нюансы:
1. На шлеме Гнездово тип I наружная часть "обруча" не загнута как на Коппергейтском.
2. Заклепки расположены чаще и изготовлены из железа, а не из серебра.
(выдернутый из D. Tweddle Anglian helmet from Coppergate рисунок - http://photofile.ru/...ge/35699455.jpg )

Толщина в 0.3-0.4 мм взята отсюда - http://photofile.ru/...01/35699006.jpg
возможно имелась в виду толщина "обруча"?..

Размерные характеристики немного отличаются

какие и насколько значимо?

[Sergei]

1. Не загнуто.
2. Речь шла о конструкции подвеса бармицы, а не о металле, или частоте расположения клёпок. Если продолжать уточнения, то и сечение пластины металла, из которого изготовлен "подвес", другой, ширина "петель" другая и т.д и т.п. Подвес копергейтского шлема был приведён исключительно как наиболее известный и инофрмативно доступный аналог подвесу шлема из Гнёздова.
3. АНК ошибся.

[status]

Извиняюсь, что встреваю, и тем не менее хотелось бы вернуться к теме топика: существуют ли какие-либо доступные в продаже бумажные издания по раскопкам в Гнездово? И если да, не мог бы кто-либо из сведущих скинуть данные этих публикаций.
Очень хотелось бы приобрести.

[variag_s_pechki_briak]

status
Есть, В И Сизов, Курганы Смоленской Губернии, Выпуск 1й, Гнездовский могильник близ Смоленска, С Питербург Типография главного управления уделов 1902. Это первая публикация шлема Гнездово 2, есть еще, но у меня только эта. На счет купить не знаю, мы выписывали книгу из Йеля и копировали.